Веселое на ютубе

[*Guderian*]

Это вы не мне адресуйте. Я к истории отношусь спокойно, с уважением, какой бы она не была.

Для меня остается фактом, что Нюрнбергский процесс осудил нацистских преступников, Германия выплатила репарации, а восточная ее часть на 45 лет погрузилась во тьму псевдокоммунизма.

[AngelOfGrief]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Это вы не мне адресуйте. Я к истории отношусь спокойно, с уважением, какой бы она не была.

Генерал, проблема больше в трактовке истории, а не в истории как таковой. Потому что эта трактовка у любого человека в первую очередь базируется на том, во что он верит, а не на фактах. И то, что история во многом противоречива (т.к. сами историки, писавшие её, тоже имеют определённые убеждения) только подливает масла в огонь споров на различные исторические темы.

Политика, религия, история -- всё это вещи, затрагивающие личные убеждения человека. Именно поэтому дискуссии на эти темы никогда не приводят к общему знаменателю.

[*Guderian*]

В любой истории есть темные пятна. Однако, существуют незыблимые факты. Я строю свое воприятие истории именно на них.

[Moscow]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Это вы не мне адресуйте. Я к истории отношусь спокойно, с уважением, какой бы она не была.

Для меня остается фактом, что Нюрнбергский процесс осудил нацистских преступников, Германия выплатила репарации, а восточная ее часть на 45 лет погрузилась во тьму псевдокоммунизма.

Фердинанд Порше отсидел почти два года во Французской тюрьме по обвинению в пособничеству фашистскому режиму. Самоходная установка Фердинанд учасвовала во всех танковых сражениях начиная с Курской дуги и до конца войны. Так что дело не в Жуке.

[VOL]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Это вы не мне адресуйте. Я к истории отношусь спокойно, с уважением, какой бы она не была.

Для меня остается фактом, что Нюрнбергский процесс осудил нацистских преступников, Германия выплатила репарации, а восточная ее часть на 45 лет погрузилась во тьму псевдокоммунизма.

Пожалуйста, если не трудно, изложите свой взгляд на автопром германии в свете сегодняшних дней и чем он перекликается с фашизмом. Если не затруднит - кратко но емко. А то не очень понятна ваша позиция.

[Moscow]

Сейчас увидел что тема называется "Веселое на ютубе", но по традиции превратилась в грустное из реальной жизни :-)

[VOL]

да, это точно! Флудим везде - флудим всегда! )) Надеюсь Денис перекинет эти посты в другую тему. Только не закрывать, тема на самом деле интересная.

[*Guderian*]

Сообщение от Moscow

Фердинанд Порше отсидел почти два года во Французской тюрьме по обвинению в пособничеству фашистскому режиму.

Нет, не поэтому...

Отрывок из книги Dennis Adler "Porsche: the road from Zuffenhausen"

"...The first incident occurred in the summer of 1945 when a German informer, who, as Ferry wrote, had “insinuated his way into favor with the British,” became chief of police in Wolfsburg. Seeking to strengthen his political position, he accused Ferdinand Porsche of murder after two bodies were found in the house that Porsche had used when visiting the KdF factory. The trumped-up charges were unsubstantiated since no one from the Porsche family had been anywhere hear Wolfsburg for several months. However, the police chief the persisted and convinced the chief of the American military police in Zell am See that the Porsches were murderers. Ferry considered the whole affair preposterous until a until of American MPs arrived and arrested every male member of the Porsches family except Ferdinand Porsche, who was a Gmund visiting Karl Rabe. Erwin Komenda and most of the factory workers living on the estate grounds, thirty-two people in all, were also taken into custody and carted off to prison in Salzburg.
Unbeknownst to any of the family members in Zell am See, Ferdinand Porsche was also taken into custody and was under house arrest at Gmund until early August. He was then driven in his own car to Schloss Kransberg, a castle near Bad Nauheim that had been turned into an internment camp by the occupation forces. There, Porsche was kept along with senior members of the German ministry, including Albert Speer, Hitler’s minister for armaments and war production. Everyone held at Schloss Kransberg was under suspicion of war crimes, and it was here that the Allies would ascertain who would be sent to trial at the Nuremberg Count. Those sent to trial, including German Field Marshal Hermann Goring and ten other Nazi Party leaders, were sentenced to death in 1946.
Knowing that Porsche had not been involved in any political activity during the war, Speer strenuously defended him before the military tribunal. As a result, Porsche was cleared of any suspicion of complicity in war crimes and given am official document stating that no charges were to be brought against him. When he returned to Austria, shortly after his seventieth birthday, he discovered that his son and all his associates were in prison, accused of a crime they not only had not committed but of which they had no knowledge. Ferry and the others had been interned for thirteen weeks, and not once had any of them been questioned about the incident in Wolfsburg.
Recalled Ferry, “My father eventually succeeded in convincing the British of our innocence, and he secured our release from the American military government in Vienna.” It was November 1, 1945, and when Ferry arrived back in Zell am See, he believed that the worst was over. “We were to be proved hopelessly wrong,” he said.
Sentiments toward Germany were hard-hearted, much worse than they had been after the Great War. The Morgenthau Plan, named after Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Secretary of the Treasure (1934-1945) and the son of a wealthy U.S. financier and statesman who was born in Germany, was a harsh peace settlement that called for the total dismantling of German industry, the closure of mines, and the conversion of highly industrialized nation into am agrarian state. Allied bombing attacks beginning in 1943 had almost assured the first decree; nevertheless, by the end of summer 1945, the Allied occupation forces were allowing the German automotive industry to begin the slow process of cleaning up and rebuilding. This was about the time a young French lieutenant named Henri LeComte arrived at the Porsche estate in Austria.
“Lieutenant LeComte had first gone our Zuffenhausen factory and discovered that we were living in Austria. LeComte claimed to be working on behalf of Marcel Paul, the French minister for industry,” wrote Ferry. “Paul was a member of the French Communist Party. He wanted to obtain the Volkswagen factory as part of Germany’s reparations payment to France. Of course of agreement of the American and, more important, the British, in whose zone the factory was, had to be obtained.” What the French needed even more was Ferdinand Porsche's help, or so it first appeared when LeComte came knocking on Porsche's door. At his bequest, in mid-November Anton Piech and the Porsches, along with their cousin Herbert Kaes, drove to Baden-Baden, which was now in the French-occupied zone of West Germany. There they met at the Hotel Muller with government representatives who told them that France was planning to build a state-owned automobile factory which would include half of the manufacturing equipment from the VW plant of Wolfsburg as reparations payments. The Porsches were needed to supervise the removal and relocation of the Volkswagen tooling and to oversee construction of the new manufacturing facility in France. The French by LeComte's superiors, Major Trevoux and Major Maiffre, had gone so far as to draft a contact in advance for Ferdinand Porsche to sign. Trevoux requested that he do so before leaving. Although the plan appeared to have some merit and had obviously piqued Porsche's curiosity, he told Trevoux that he needed to think it over before agreeing to the proposal.
Back in Zell am See, Ferry expressed serious doubts regarding Marcel Paul's plan and the sincerity of the French to build a German car, but his father had become enthusiastic about the project in the weeks that followed. He told Ferry, “It look as if the French are pretty serious about this business.” Early in December the Porsches, Piech, and Kaes once again made the drive to Baden-Baden to resume discussions with Trevoux. They had no idea that the political situation had changed between November and December and that they were now walking into trap.
The French accommodated the Porsches in the Villa Bella Vista, and a meeting was arranged again at the Hotel Muller. When they arrived, however, Trevoux was not were. In his place was a Colonel Lamis, who barely showed any interest in the discussions and asked seemingly irrelevant questions of Ferdinand Porsche. The meeting concluded rather abruptly, and the Porsches were sent back to their rooms. “My father gradually became more and more impatient,” recalled Ferry, “and decided to go back to Zell am See the next day. That same evening Maiffre and LeComte were dining with us when two Frenchmen in civilian clothes suddenly appeared and told us that we were under arrest. LeComte acted surprised and said, “The whole thing is a misunderstanding, believe me! Please remain calm and don't get excited. We'll have the matter cleared up by Monday!” Monday would be too late. The order had come from the French minister of justice, Pierre-Henri Teitgen, and on Sunday, December 16, 1945 Ferdinand and Ferry Porsche and Fr. Anton Piech were taken to the prison in Baden-Baden. Kaes, who had decided to skip the dinner on Friday and go to the cinema instead, managed to escape arrest. Staying at the house of relative, he remained nearby to observe the events as they unfolded.
The Porsches were imprisoned now for the second time in as many month. Knowing of the document clearing his father of any war crimes, Ferry was at a loss to understand their unprovoked arrest. His answer came the next day when a series of charges were leveled at his father and brother-at-law, this time for misconduct with respect to prisoners of war and workers at the Peugeot plants that had come under the control of VW during Germany's occupation of France. The rationale was that Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Piech had been in charge of the KdF Werk during the war, thus they were responsible for the acts of the Gestapo who had brutalized French workers. The accusations were as thin as the paper on which they were written. The Porsche and Piech had merely become pawns in a battle between two factions, and their arrest was part of a politically motivated conspiracy by French automakers and those in the French cabinet to sabotage Marcel Paul's plan of building VWs in France. Ferry's early apprehensions about the sincerity of the French had been correct. “They had hoped to achieve their aim by taking us out of circulation,” he said. And it had worked. The accusations, false or otherwise, were far more serious than they first appeared.
The charges against his father, as Ferry later recounted, were based on half-truths and the mistaken beliefs about events that occurred at the Peugeot factory in Montbeliard.”My father was accused of being a war criminal on the grounds that, after a few incidents of sabotage at Peugeot factories, some French people had been arrested by the Gestapo at my father's instigation. There was alleged to be evidence that a few Peugeot managers had been thrown into prison during the German occupation. This was all contained in charges brought against my father, which we would have dismissed as ridiculous if the situation had not been so serious. In reality, my father had intervened on behalf of the Peugeot managers and had complained bitterly to the Gestapo that cooperation would be impossible if the Peugeot management was locked up in jail. The managers were subsequently released. However, when shortly afterward there were further acts of sabotage at Peugeot, several managers were thrown back into prison. My father intervened again, but this time the strength of available evidence meant his efforts were in vain. One of the managers died during his imprisonment.”

[*Guderian*]

Продолжение:

"...Similar accusations were made against Anton Piech and Ferry. It was soon proven that Ferry had never been associated with the management of the KdF Werk or Volkswagen, and he was released from Baden-Baden prison in March 1946. However, he was still detained by the French and not permitted to return to Austria until July. Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Piech were also released from prison but were likewise detained as “guests” of the French.
Despite protests from within French cabinet, Marcel Paul continued to lobby for the production of Volkswagen in France, and thus the struggle raged on into 1946. In May both Porsche and Piech were driven to Paris where they were accommodated in the servant's quarters of the Renault villa. They were later met by a team of Renault engineers and asked to review drawings for the new 4CV model and assist Renault in setting up the production line. Porsche and Piech cooperated fully and even worked in the Renault assembly shop on preparation for the production of the 4CV, but after more then year and repeated pleas for their release, in Febrary 1947 they were jailed again. Events had suddenly gone from bad to worse.
Marcel Paul had lost his seat in the French cabinet, thus ending the debate over producing the VW in France, and Minister of Justice Teitgen, who signet the original arrest warrant, had become even more powerful within the cabinet. Perhaps as a result, Porsche and Piech were transferred to the prison in Dijon, one of the worst in France. The cells were unheated even in the middle of winter, and at age seventy-two the elder Porsche's health soon began to fail. A physician declared him too ill to remain incarcerated, and Porsche was transferred to the prison hospital where he slowly regained some strength but remained in despair over his situation.
Several month later Porsche was interrogated once again by French authorities, only this time there were two Peugeot managers present, both of whom spoke on Porsche's behalf and confirmed that he had nothing to do with the mistreatment of French workers. A former Gestapo officer had also been questioned, and he, too, confirmed that Porsche had absolutely no involvement with French prisoners being sent to Germany as forced labor at the KdF. Ferdinand Porsche's long winter appeared to be coming to an end. With these new revelations the French finally agreed to free both Professor Porsche and Dr. Piech, but first a bail of one million francs was to be posted. It was an impossible sum of money for the Porsche family to obtain..
Throughout the ordeal in France, Karl Rabe and Louise Porsche-Piech had kept things going at Gmund by supervising the repair of prewar VWs and VW bucket cars. Toward the end of 1946 there were more than two hundred employees working at the Gmund facility, which Ferry and Louise had wisely reorganized as an Austrian company under the name Porsche Konstruktionen GesmbH. It was still tough going, but in September 1946 fate at last turned in Porsche’s favor when Italian industrialist and amateur race driver Piero Dusio entered their lives.
Dusio had made his fortune selling war materiel to the Italian government. Even being on the losing side had been profitable for him, and in 1946 he bankrolled the development of an entire class of single-seat race cars known as Cisitalia, the contraction for Consorzio Industriale Sportivo Italia. He hired a talented Fiat engineer named Dante Giacosa, who designed a simple, Fiat-based race car that could be produced profitably in reasonable numbers. Dusio also employed former Fiat experimental engineer Dr. Giovanni Savonuzzi to put the car into production and also the great Piero Taruffi to road test the first sample. By August 1946, Cisitalia had produced seven of the new Type D46 Monopostos, and in their debut race a trio od Cisitalias finished first through third.
Among Dusio’s cadre of racing luminaries was the legendary Tazio Nuvolari. As fate would have it, Nuvolari had driven for the Auto Union before the war and was familiar with Professor Porsche and the magnificent cars he had designed. When he decided to resume his Grand Prix racing career, both Nuvolari and Dusio found their way to Porsche’s doorstep through mutual friends: Carlo Abarth, who was married to Anton Piech’s former secretary, and Rudolf Hruska, who had worked with Porsche in 1939. It was only after making contact with Louise Piech and Ferry Porsche, however, that Dusio discovered the plight of their father and offered to provide the necessary funds to secure his release. He had one million francs delivered to the French authorities through his friends, celebrated race drivers Louis Chiron and Raymond Sommer. On August 1, 1947, Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Piech were released after almost two years in and out of French prisons. The money used to buy their freedom was the payment for designing the Grand Prix car for Dusio, but he was generous and contracted additionally for Porsche to design a small farm tractor, a sport car, and a water turbine. Of the three, only the tractor was produced..."

[*Guderian*]

Сообщение от VOL

Пожалуйста, если не трудно, изложите свой взгляд на автопром германии в свете сегодняшних дней и чем он перекликается с фашизмом. Если не затруднит - кратко но емко. А то не очень понятна ваша позиция.

После прихода нацистов к власти немецкие и австрийские заводы получили финансирование, заказы и вышли за счет этого на очень высокий технологический уровень.

[VOL]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

После прихода нацистов к власти немецкие и австрийские заводы получили финансирование, заказы и вышли за счет этого на очень высокий технологический уровень.

Ясно! Но остается тайной, как это относится к Порше сегодня?

[*Guderian*]

Это напрямую относится к Порше сегодня. Скажем так: финансовый успех и технический потенциал будущего компании был во многом заложен в период правления нацистов. Идеи, которые Ф. Порше реализовал в среднемоторных АЮ и заднемоторных КдФ нашли свое продолжение уже после войны.

[Лентяй]

Как, например, производство ДКВ было вывезено в Советский Союз.

[*Guderian*]

На моей памяти еще Вандерер, АЮ, Опель...